1984

Has anyone read this book?
I've recently finished it, and I must say, the ending is absolutely frustrating! It makes me sick, but it also scares me, because governments can and have become very powerful in the same tone as the government in the book. :/ Do you think it's a fictional notion, how far do you think the government can actually go?

I've read it and even have a personal copy of mine. This book is timeless and one of the most influential, I suppose. The ending is sad but true. Then-time governments were cruel and pretty much at their peak of success. Totalitarian states have always been an evil thing. So, don't let yourself be giuded by someone, especially the state-friendy media.

I dont remember the book in detail  but I never saw the ending as sad but as human.

why human?  because we do not see ourselves, our species for who we are blinded by religious concept. our lives are bounded by environment precept not divine.  our reality is regulated by nature and not by god(s) and our resolutions likewise. 

that ending is most likely because of our foolishness, our determination to live by faith and not by sight.  Orwell is discussing the failure of the Russian revolution and its morphing into Animal farm..another book by Orwell. he demonstrates how revolutionary promise turned into its existential opposite.

the revolutionary promise was the development of the people to end the state apparatus and control over society.  the people would take over society once developed by the revolutionary process.  the opposite took place  the revolutionary apparatus established itself as a dictatorship as vicious as the apparatus of 1984..the state, the bureaucracy, a parasitic organization with a vested interest n the work/labour of the people..that is to tax it to pay themselves

but the lie at the center of that is that the people were already developing.  in Russia they had carried out a revolution on their own, tore down the state and created their own form of social organization called the Soviet..at which point one Vlad Lenin was smuggled into Russia, and along with his Bolshevik party proceeded to recolonize Russia from the working classes/ordinary people who had carried through their popular revolution.  the aim was to steal the popular democracy, kill off the monarchy and establish a centralized bureaucratic dictatorship which is exactly what happened.

that is what Orwell is discussing in 1984..from the actual real facts on the ground..criticizing the so-called communist, Marxists..who were t anything of e sort but vicious dictators who normal popular revolutionary activity gave rise to.

it is the people in popular democracy who had carried out the revolution and created the new democratic political forms that saved Russia who were socially advanced....not Lenin, Trotsky and the Bolsheviks..nor the Mensheviks , Royalist etc. these were all backward devils masquerading as communists.  they were the reaction who would steal the revolution and turn it into 1984

Orwell by demonstrating that major flaw in Marxists ideology revolutionary reality asked the question how can such reaction be avoided in revolutionary activity.

well/who was/is the reaction ::confused::

they are none other than the intellectual leadership that assumes progressive leadership in the run up to possible revolutionary change.  a bad situation existed then in Monarchist Russia then as bad situations exist currently everywhere. the people are marginalized facing death, starvation, unemployment and on and on..  there is a struggle between the people and the established way and its apparatus. 

when one looks into the social fray of the day there are organized political parties in the mix including who are called the leftists, the communists,Marxists etc.  these are the reaction, those who will ride the popular bandwagon, emerge as the leaders if the popular agitation succeeds in overthrowing the established way..the monarchy then...as is the oligarchy /state apparatus currently

there is the key to them that must be know popularly and must be formulated in the question;  WHO PAYS THEM IF THE REVOLUTION SUCCEEDS AND THEY BECOME LEADERS ::confused::

IT IS THE SAME QUESTION AS WHO PAYS THE MONARCHIST BUREAUCRACY THAT STRANGLES AND BLEEDS THE PEOPLE AND CAUSE THE REVOLUTION IN THE FIRST PLACE.

the organized so-called revolutionary party is as parasitic as the one they replace.  they are the brings of society, they do not work to produce the means of their subsistence..which means they are not involved in production of the wealth of society but are paper pushes like their predecessors.  somebody have to pay their salaries which means same government control, taxes,police state and all of that....

this is the reason why all revolutionary activity has failed in the past.  it is ultimately why the efforts in latin america are failing right now.  it is the reason why Syriza has failed in Greece right now..and why the Portuguese, Italians and Spanish will also fail as we speak.  the problem is not revolutionary activity which always works in the hands of the people.. but the nature of the structure itself that we all expect in society..that there will be..and must be... leaders, a government bureaucracy and departments of health, education, of finance and all of that.

HOW TO AVOID THE STAGE OF REVOLUTIONARY UPHEAVAL AND SOCIAL CHANGE THAT INVOLVES THE ORGANIZED LEFT POLITICAL PARTIES ::confused:: ::confused:: ::confused::

THAT IS THE QUESTION..HOW TO SO AVOID ::confused:: ::confused:: ::confused:: WHAT HAS THE 98 YEARS SINCE THE RUSSIAN REVOLUTION TAUGHT US ::confused:: ::confused:: ::confused::

that the people must go out and revolutionize as usual but to arrest the reaction in the form of the organized political parties partly in the form of social change they enact as they go..that is what can replace immediately and functionally the state bureaus.... ::confused:: ::confused:: ::confused::

in Venezuela Chavez created a system of missions that placed what is the work of the bureaus into the hands of the people to solve and develop solutions. the missions were wildly success..are successful.  what Chavez should have done then was to go all the way placing the work of government into the hands of the people and developing social forms to handle it as they went.

but Chavez, stupidly mesmerized  by capitalist ideological gobbledygook stopped, slowed down the deepening of democracy, the full democratization of Venezuela and lost his life for nothing because the situation is returning to a capitalist mess as we speak, because he did not go all the way ..deepening democracy, killing the basis for parasitic bureaucracy and giving society a real chance.

Chavez then is another leftist failure in the world, in human history..which is what always happened with organized political parties for they have one foot in bureaucracy and pay lip service to the principles of the ideologies they supposedly represent

that is the problem!  the bureaucratic apparatus does not produce any wealth but consumes wealth produced by others.  there are millions of people in bureaucracies everywhere..the STATE who are parasitic for this reason.  the state ends up the social dictator forcing the people to work to produce the wealth that they tax to the bone to pay themselves so they can live in splendor..not the people who do the world. 

and the STATE, the GOVERNMENT  gets absolutely vicious, murderous, brutal, totalitarian in effecting their social control to maintain itself..which is what Orwell discusses.  those 3 social divisions into which Orwell's world is split obvious collude in creating maintaining a world in which a total fake reality is maintained to divide the people and so rule them.  and no method of control is ignored.

Winston Smith is turned into his opposite by coercive and invasive forms of mind control and sent back out to lve in compliance with the status quo.

that is our collective future if we we do not rise and change society

what 1984 represents is a fully developed, bureaucratic state replete with advanced means of social coercion, in which all human skill and knowledge is at the disposal of the state to bring to bear on the people in order to control them totally. 

1984 is a totalitarian state par excellence, a total state seeking to be flawless in its methods.  it will brook no opposition and take pride in turning the 'doubters' into lovers of their very oppression.  and as totalitarian it is a full creative expression of Marxism itself for in its scientific methodology Marxism makes such a state possible. O'brien knows that the slightest disequilibrium in the process can lead to it spinning out of control so that state based on scientific method looks for such spins, vortexes and corrects them.  Winston smith was one such and he was 'corrected'

when Marxists take over society they can really have deep understanding of society and can be seriously dangerous and perfectly totalitarian.  with this as  popular knowledge the revolution must not give them a a chance.  we know that they will be located in the political parties and in any organized but parasitic social organization..NGO.. that does not pay its own way and purport to lead the people.  they must be eliminated immediately in revolutionary activity,not allowed the opportunity to ride the revolution to power and usurp it

the fact is we have to know life to the best extent we have proved on any day we are still in existence and live by that. 

we must know who we are, our true story and be informed and disciplined by that in our routine existence.  as such we can know that the resolution of the Winston Smith story is very human and possible depending on the kind of society we create n planet earth.

we must live by sight not by faith.  faith is nonsense, suicidal.  there cannot possibly be any god out there that corresponds to the gods of our religions.  all the religions are fake for the most part, created or put together by men and co-opted by elites for the purpose of social control..the general manipulation of society to make people accepting of and happy with their exploitation.

if there is a god out there I am sure that It will be found not by faith but by sight. we will be able to prove such a god in time.  such a god will be of course far advanced and would not be coming back for humanity.  what would be the point ::confused:: what would be the purpose ::confused::  humanity is a joke as it currently is not worthy of survival.which is why we must earn survival..a process that makes us fit or survival and universal advance.

as far as I see whether there is a god or not we are on our own, for the obvious reason we are evolutionary, started ignorant and so our path is set..learn all we can about life, apply what we learn positively in nature,  to ourselves and our chances in nature and progress.  do the opposite like we have ignorantly done and we risk it all

I've never read any of Orwell's other books but you've convinced me to look into it! I agree that the majority of the population goes off of faith and feelings, but that's such an integral part of human existence it's hard to divide yourself from the emotional reactions you have. We aren't little robots after all.  ::LOL::

i think its a very simple matter to resolve.
you have a problem. you inherit an approach based in faith that you practice but it does not work.  the problems remain.  then you realize that the approach has been around for 2 thousand years and it has solved nothing at all. what it requires is belief and we have believed generation after generation for so long and it is still there..the approach based in faith...AND THE PROBLEM!

so what in the hey is going on?

who owns the approach based in faith and how do they dispense solution.

that may seem a bad question but it is not.  those who dispense the faith based approach have one giant structure world wide, full of wealth and live sweetly and we pay for it.  we pay for it because we are waiting for the solution and are convinced that they have the answer.  but the existence of the problem ensures the faith based organization and their reluctance to solve it.  for if it gets solved there goes their meal ticket..their whole structure of faith based nonsense

but can they solve it or are they just telling you that you must have faith and belief and trust in them and their and some fella they call god will reward you..if you believe ::confused::

the faith and belief is the trap then..the type of thought that separates you from common sense, from using your mind in the consideration of natural phenomena and therefore developing your ability to deal with life period, regardless of what develops...how life turns out to be that you discover as you go along investigation life and surviving by your own brains and skills there-off.  you now have, have developed on the knowledge/skill you have developed the confidence to know life and work everything out and win, rather than believing, and not actually knowing anything at all which state of existence is engendered by belief.

but knowledge and capability does not strip you of feelings, emotions or anything of the sort. indeed the confidence of knowledge and the skill at solving problems makes life sweeter, makes feelings accurate, based in truth and less hurt and betrayal results, less being wrong and unhappy, clinging to faith and belief...  in which there are no answers, only useless belief in things you have no idea whether they are true or false..and in no way can prove either true or false.

in faith and belief one is always caught in the middle, in suspension, no certain way to turn..hooked and hoisted on a tender hook from which those who gave you the belief can fleece your pockets.

the answer lies always in go by what you KNOW! develop your knowledge of life and skills in dealing with life and all answers come as you go. if you are going to believe in anything believe in human ability to come to know the world, the universe and develop and devise means of survival in it, and from it. that is what we have managed to do despite all the nonsense abstractions that have kept us back mightily, especially over the past 2 thousand years with the development of the abstract religions ... which is why we are still here.

we are not here because of faith and belief. we could not cure disease if we believed as opposed to knowing how to, by coming to know what cause disease and what would cure them.

in life there is no practical reason to have to believe in any dam thing, to have faith at all.  why..what is the question ::confused::

every question in all practicality has an answer even if we d not know it currently.  we will come to know it in time by effort, investigation driven by the need to solve the problem or die..literally..the actual equation we face every minute of every day we are still here. 

any issue that cannot be so treated is ABSTRACT..WHICH MEANS THERE CANNOT POSSIBLY BE AN ANSWER BECAUSE IT IS NOT REAL ISSUE BUT A FABRICATED ONE.  AND AS THE WORLD IS MATERIAL AND YIELDS ALWAYS TO HUMAN INVESTIGATION..THE THE WORLD HAS AN ANSWER..OR THERE IS AN ANSWER IN THE WORLD  SO WE MUST GO FIND THAT ANSWER AND APPLY IT POSITIVELY TO OUR EXISTENCE IN ORDER TO SURVIVE.  WE ONLY KNOW SO MUCH OF IT SO FAR BUT WE MUST DISCOVER MORE IN ORDER TO SURVIVE.

THAT IS THE NATURE OF EXISTENCE.. IT IS MATERIAL, SOLID AND PROCESS, DYNAMIC,MANY SIDED, MATTER IN CONSTANT MOTION AND ELECTRICAL IN NATURE....A REALITY THAT LIVES AND MOVES AND EVOLVES AND DEVELOPS, THAT IS YET INTEGRATED AND INTERACTIVE AND PRODUCTIVE OF CONSTANT EXPANSION AS IT GOES..SO WE END UP NEVER KNOWING EVERYTHING  BECAUSE OF THAT CONSTANT EXPANSION, CONSTANT DYNAMISM.

YOU SEE:  IF THE WORLD, WHATEVER WE ARE IN UNIVERSALLY, IS LIKE THAT... REALITY IS LIKE THAT. THERE CANNOT BE ANYTHING WITHOUT AN ANSWER..ANYTHING TO THE OPPOSITE OF THAT..  AND THE FAITH WE HAVE DEVELOPED AROUND AN ABSTRACT PARADOX IS NONSENSE BECAUSE IT DOES NOT CORRESPOND TO THE LIFE WE HAVE PROVED SO FAR.  IT DOES NOT LIVE, BREATHE IN ANY WAY, EVOLVES AND DEVELOPS.  IT HAS BEEN THE SAME FOR 2 THOUSAND YEARS AND WE ARE REQUIRED TO BELIEVE AND FOLLOW BLINDLY.

HOW IS IT PRACTICAL IN AN EVOLUTIONARY UNIVERSE TO BELIEVE THE SAME THING FOREVER ::confused:: ::confused::

NO WONDER WE ARE IN THE GREAT CRISIS WE ARE IN.  WE HAVE BEEN MADE STUPID, RENDERED UNABLE TO DEAL WITH OUR SITUATION BY THE STATIC ABSTRACTIONS WE HAVE COME TO BELIEVE.

there is nothing in reality that is abstract.  abstraction is a function of the human mind evolved with the development of speech and thinking.  abstraction is a function of reasoning.  in the world, that is where it exists, IN THE MIND...the only place it can exist, in the human brain and nowhere else. 

abstraction cant exist n the material world for the material world is factual, solid and works in ways that is solid, functional,dynamic, in integrated relationship..process.  we can tell whatever exists evolved from something else and how it exists, what it feeds on or off etc.  abstract products also evolve but in and from the human mind only never requires proof,only belief.  that is how it kills the, mind and murders common sense and human survival skills

abstractions do evolve in relation to human exploitation driven by the survival needs of divided society. it is a question of means..evolution f the means by which it controls the mind not the central message which never changes.  in christianity Jesus is always Jesus no matter how tendentious that story is.  it is the same with Mohammed in Islam and each and every religion.  but their doctrine must be interpreted,  and it takes a certain kind of test for such interpretation..the PRIEST. and from the priest we have re-interpretation of original doctrine constantly that has produced just as constant warfare abut what the real word of god was, division over which great quantities of human blod has been and is shed..and which fact has led to the 24/7, 365 religious industry

the tell tale signs that abstractions are straight out of the heads of humans, of men in particular  in this male dominated world include the impervious nature of abstraction to  yield to simple answers and so end the need for belief..proves what it actually is about.  no abstraction is capable of such resolution

human male dominated society, grabbed hold of such original abstractions, established them as the way of the nations and over time finessed them into the controlling propaganda of the masses of humanity.

these have had the effect..have the effect.. of massive social control over several thousands of years but they are now running out of steam in the face of growing knowledge of the universe that refutes categorically the abstractions, truth that can no longer be denied and  ignored, that exposes the controlling abstractions for the jackass they are.

the abstractions have divided people, by race, class and gender, by nation.  they have made all rancid human behavior possible, justified all plunder, slavery mass murder..indeed every crime in the book.  but we have been asked to believe and have faith that the god will return and put everything right.  but the god never returns and it is not possible to pinpoint  a date when IT will.

but the point is clear.  what requires faith and belief has no answer.  that is why it requires faith and belief..because there is no answer.  the only existential construct that so demands of us faith and belief are abstractions, ideas out of our heads that are not rue, cannot possibly be true, cannot be proven to be anything else but foolishness. 

reality outside of us, of which we are a part, inside of us..the conditions that gave rise to us, provides answers, through proper and accurate human methods of investigation of natural phenomena.  abstractions can yield no answers  of life, to the problems of life because they are not real, but mental creations/productions of the human mind, dead and abstract, created often specifically for socially exploitative purposes..a category under which religion falls

the answer is simple:  live by sight and not by faith.  all things are possible by the development of humanity,our knowledge and survival skills, our understanding of the conditions that gave rise to us and in which we live.. and must live

even if there is a god IT must be discovered by sight and not by faith.  the fact the our current religious beliefs are abstractions proves that that the contentions of gods are false, pointless, useless, do not  exist,  make no sense relative to the truth we have proved so far...cannot possibly be true relative to those coordinates

we have proved so far that our religions and our ideas of god are quite ridiculous along with the entire associated doctrinal bases associated with gods

The elite are trying to use 1984 as a manual instead of something to avoid. They see people and the Earth as theirs, and believe that overpopulation and people are unworthy to live and eat from the soil. They believe that if the world is not massively depopulated, that they will not survive either. But they are destroying the world with their experiments and the bad things that they are doing faster than even the most populated and over-produced world of humans ever could if left to do things naturally. They don't care about nature, and I'm convinced that the only thing government cares about are themselves and what they can get from the people without the people knowing it or doing anything about it. I wish it were different, but that's how it is now. Seems like every year it gets worse because they keep getting away with more and more.

There's also a great story of him about the farm. Don't remember the exact title. But it's awesome. The key phrase was "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others". Very decent representation of communism.

you got a great grip on it man.  don't let it go...only a few more short steps now.

Sorry about that piece last night.  I was falling asleep on myself....lots of typos, conceptual mistakes and other flaws.  I will try to edit it now

what is the fact in this matter then ::confused::

it is that nothing at all can or will last forever.  everything changes due the to basic, fundamental conditions of existence.

we have lived that truth, proved that truth over and over again each generation we have live as a species  so far.  as long as life lives and moves CHANGES. things interact according to their own modes of existence and survival and affect each other, producing more and more challenges to survival and more and more existential demands on forms in their survival.

then guys cannot live forever as overlords of planet earth. they have to accept that fact or die trying. the effort  to rule over the earth forever will require them to kill us.. all or be killed by us to ensure our own survival

whereas if we accepted basic truths about life..like inability to live forever in one form or social relations then we accept life, evolution as the mode of life and how it works and bring ourselves into line with it.  that would ensure we all survived employ the best methods of survival we develop as we go