This is Jeremy Corbyn..A Politician. Sweet Eh

talk about your double face eh.

and he is the socialist who was supposed to save Britain.  here he campaigning for Britain staying in the most undemocratic structure on the planet.... the European Union

no politician can be trusted.  they are all bought out... from the left, right, centre, top down east and west, north and south.  not one can be trusted as far as they can be seen.  as soon as they are out of sight they are making deals against the peoples interest

Corbyn, in support of Britain staying in the EU is a stunning ideological conflict that can be managed without falling down with an intense and terminal headache, only by a politician who by the rules of that trade, has at heart, no principles  at all..none, nada..empty of any morals and ethics

the european union cannot be reformed.  its very existence is based on inequality and cannot exist but in that inequality.  its structure is parasitic. it does not create wealth.  it has a bureaucracy at its core that must be paid for by the people of europe who have no say in how they are governed.  the EU is a bureau that  appoint itself... they are not elected by anyone.

how in the hell can a socialist support any such thing in any way shape and form?

You sent me a private message mapoui, I tried replying but kept getting a weird error (did my reply go through?).

I will post my reply in this thread instead.

"It's easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism." - Mark Fisher

I agree with you, but the problem is it's almost impossible to imagine how production and distribution would work if private business were transcended.

Some recent futurists have described a system called a 331, where you have full national employment in which everyone works 3 hours a day, 3 days a week for 15 years. The citizen does work for community/nationally owned "businesses", with the commodities democratically decided and then freely distributed to whoever wants them.

The numbers they crunched to arrive at the 331 are quite interesting. The end result is that a typical American doing a "331" would work about 450 hours a year, or 7100 hours a lifetime, to achieve a First World standard of living. In comparison, a typical 21st centuryer works about 3285 hours a year, or 180675 hours a lifetime.

They imagine people starting work at the age of eight or nine (simple community upkeep jobs of your choice - a kid working an hour a week cutting grass with his dad for example) and then retiring by 25 or so. As all work is spread very thinly across all citizens, citizens retire young. You're then free to dedicate your time to whatever you want, or even continue working if you like.

Remember, it is estimated that more than 60 percent of contemporary jobs would be eliminated if you got rid of capitalism's need for interest, debt based money. Most work is useless and just designed to play catch up with globals debts and keep the pyramid scheme from collapsing. A system is needed which is slower, more sustainable, spreads work (rather than forces people to compete for the same roles) and which either has no growth, or very slowly up-scales economic growth with population growth.

I think it is small technological inventions which will slowly bring about these changes, though, not political policy or mass movements. You've heard about peer-to-peer file sharing, right? Well we have technology which can put photovoltaic solar panels on all houses and then link them into interlocking networks. I even know a guy who designs cyanobacteria panels that can go on houses; the bacteria produce energy from sunlight and sugars.

With systems like this, each house could produce its own yearly electricity, and "share" electricity with other "seeders", free of charge. These things aren't put in place because they rob profits from the fossil fuel industry. But they will slowly happen.

What we need is a Holistic approach to social design which simultaneously and deeply changes many different aspects of society and labour. That's not how politics works though. Politics changes things in isolation. Politics provides you with little, meaningless advances within capitalism, rather than a total conversion of capitalism. And if you try to tell politics to play by different rules, it will shoot your ass.

The EU was formed to provide the cheap and free movement of poor people from poor countries to rich countries. The rich countries wanted cheap labour. So from a moral perspective, staying in the EU is wrong because it makes it easier to exploit people.

On the flip side, the EU, because it allows the poor countries to vote on issues, provides workers with rights and protection. So the EU lessens the ass kicking poor people get. So from a moral perspective, staying in the EU is right because it makes it harder to exploit people.

If England were to leave the EU, it would simply take in more immigrants from places like India, Africa and other countries not in the EU.

So staying in the EU is bad and leaving the EU is bad. It's a lose-lose situation.

There's a philosopher and system's theorist called Immanuel Wallerstein. He said that Power perpetuates, and maintains its power, because the questions it poses and the options it provides are always double-binds. Power always gives you a kind of contradictory choice, or lose-lose scenario. If it didn't, it would lose its power. Power doesn't do this consciously, or plans to do this, it is simply a kind of evolutionary byproduct.

Power is in power because the options it allows are always impasses and deadlocks.

The EU fiasco is just one example of this. Whichever option is chosen, someone gets screwed.

yes..I got your reply.  but its here too..

my point about the EU is that it is a capitalist structure, a much larger and far more dangerous one than Britain itself as one individual country and as such in function and potential even greater threat it is dangerous to us all and is an enemy to be eliminated.

and contrary to argument there is no benefit or worker protection under EU jurisdiction.  and if I am wrong and there is some modicum of protection for the working class, by the arbitrary nature of EU power, that can be erased at any time

it is better for the world if Britain leaves and that Union falls.

Thanks for that 331 concept , TD

Interesting, indeed !

that is not how things will happen at all.  what is most likely to happen is spontaneous, unscripted revolution in which there is national social breakdown,  all systems cease to operate, to function, there is widespread needs unmet anymore,  and the people rise and fix things how they can be fixed in their regions, that come to constitute the new way once it lasts.

who will be there to coordinate such work programs, who will direct it..  it as is if some national centre of power is retained from which all this direction emanates. it is the failure of such national organization based on exploitation of the people that prompts the peoples revolutionary action

we know how the established system functions and its failures.  the cures that exists exists because we have the failures.  we know what can come from the failed sections of society,what they are capable of due to their class interests, by the way they have operated all along.  from them cannot come anything but whats in their interest and we know that as exploitative and failed

the people by their collective interest can implement, must implement cooperative society in all its possible forms..or in one form or another according to their needs, for that is in their interest as a class, to create a popular democracy  responsive to to the general need...in which the power to run society is taken and held by the people, effectively carried out by them in the general interest

that is the answer. that is what is likely to happen, the way it is most likely to go

how work is to be conducted, organized and purposed in the future is entirely up to people in response to their needs, culture and their on-going technological development.

I don't know about 331.  that seems a non-stater to me... something aptly out of the heads of capitalist futurists who do not have a clue as to the dynamic many sided nature of life, about the mentality and outlook and needs of ordinary people and what they would do as a result of their conquest of the social power

ketchim as usual is dreaming of retained central power..bureaucratic power... which is reactionary exploitative power that is the same as the existing capitalist power by a different name.

the time for any kind of social power like that is over, finished

I expected a reply ketchim. what... none ::confused::


allyuh see this..as I have been trying to explain...that wont be the question/problem from which cooperative or revolutionary society starts.  that is a capitalist question that has relevance only in capitalism and in minds still fixated on capitalism.

the people have one goal..and that is to solve their collective insecurity.  start from there and what can and will happen has no relation at all the question of production and distribution as expressed above.

in a revolutionary realty that question is totally irrelevant.  the ordinary people not think like that..nor do they have to act in response to any such notion.  they have to meet their immediate needs.

and just as in soviet Russia which demonstrated this reality to us we will see the miraculous mushrooming of systems to meet immediate need created by the people in full revolutionary flow solving at one stroke all the silly capitalist questions of of the rationalization of production and distribution and so on.

all those are problems for the capitalist to ponder for he cant see any alternative to his way of thought.  good fuh him.  leave him to his worries.  the people will show him what can be done and will be do exactly that..solve as they go all their needs, apply technology fully,making room for more, consuming the day as capitalism can no longer do.. so it has stopped scientific advance, human progress.

capitalism is now the single most significant impediment to human evolution because systematically it can no longer even employ the people at the levels it used to, shutting out increasing amounts of people from the productive process, out of the research and development process, out of schools and education out of privatized health.

capitalism as it fails is shutting down life itself.  the people must end capitalism and in that process create a new way of meeting the needs of society.

THAT IS WHERE WE BEGIN NOT WITH ANY RESOLUTION OF PRODUCTION AND DISTRIBUTION. AT THIS POINT ALL OF THAT IS ABSTRACTION  THAT CAUSES FITS FOR THE CAPITALIST THINKER

IT IS ' HOW THE NEEDS OF SOCIETY CAN BE MET, IN THE CONDITIONS THAT EXIST' BY THE PEOPLE NOW IN CHARGE...  THAT WILL DETERMINE HOW PRODUCTION AND DISTRIBUTION WOULD TAKE PLACE

Damn. lol