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Mayor of Paris SUE Snoopster ! |
21 Jan 2015 15:30 #235821
by ketchim
Islamic education 101 ....no charge 
Bin means Son Of : so Osama would be son of Ketchim in your statement !
Bin means Son Of : so Osama would be son of Ketchim in your statement !
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21 Jan 2015 15:30 #235822
by SCA
If my stupidity lends any credibility to you, then I would be happy to assist. But then please aslo don't forget to remind us about your position regarding muslim terrorists with out religion.
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21 Jan 2015 15:32 #235823
by Snoopster
Lets start with first instance.
SCA
Re: Not Lord Shiva but Buddha is the real Diety
« Reply #28 on: 01/15/2015, 01:55 PM »
Snoopy it is important that you make a clear distinction between the violent perpetrators and the religion. All religious people are not bad. And all bad people are not religious.
Religion is good. From religion we learnt all the sciences we know today. I understand that early pursuit of education was initiated via religon. There is where we were taught our morals and that is where our values were inculcated. We must not, and cannot allow, the demented, the misguided, and the crazies to triumph over our judgment of all religionists.
Snoopster
<blockquote>Snoopy it is important that you make a clear distinction between the violent perpetrators and the religion. All religious people are not bad. And all bad people are not religious.
Religion is good. From religion we learnt all the sciences we know today. I understand that early pursuit of education was initiated via religon. There is where we were taught our morals and that is where our values were inculcated. We must not, and cannot allow, the demented, the misguided, and the crazies to triumph over our judgment of all religionists.
</blockquote>
You are wrong on every single count. If you want, create a separate thread where we can debate/discuss this fallacy at length and over the next days, weeks and months.
But to borrow the words from one of my favourite secular writer Christopher Hitchens, "Religion Poisons Everything". That is my premise for the discussion.
Snoopster
Quote from: SCA on 01/15/2015, 02:21 PM <blockquote>Again, you are not addressing the point. Which statement?
I am not an apologist...I am a realist. I live in a world where everyone co-exists in a space and time, trying to understand what this life is all about. We see good and we say good. When we see bad, we say bad. And when they are wrong you address that wrong, you don't condemn everyone they are associated with.
</blockquote>
I repeat your entire statement is wrong.
Let's start with the big fish: morality. What evidence have you that religions are responsible for our morality, presumably since time immemorial, and that as a necessary implication we would not be moral or be compelled to be moral without religion.
Let's start with this.
Religion is good. From religion we learnt all the sciences we know today. I understand that early pursuit of education was initiated via religon. There is where we were taught our morals and that is where our values were inculcated. We must not, and cannot allow, the demented, the misguided, and the crazies to triumph over our judgment of all religionists.
Religion is good. From religion we learnt all the sciences we know today. I understand that early pursuit of education was initiated via religon. There is where we were taught our morals and that is where our values were inculcated. We must not, and cannot allow, the demented, the misguided, and the crazies to triumph over our judgment of all religionists.
</blockquote>
You are wrong on every single count. If you want, create a separate thread where we can debate/discuss this fallacy at length and over the next days, weeks and months.
But to borrow the words from one of my favourite secular writer Christopher Hitchens, "Religion Poisons Everything". That is my premise for the discussion.
Quote from: SCA on 01/15/2015, 02:21 PM <blockquote>Again, you are not addressing the point. Which statement?
I am not an apologist...I am a realist. I live in a world where everyone co-exists in a space and time, trying to understand what this life is all about. We see good and we say good. When we see bad, we say bad. And when they are wrong you address that wrong, you don't condemn everyone they are associated with.
</blockquote>
I repeat your entire statement is wrong.
Let's start with the big fish: morality. What evidence have you that religions are responsible for our morality, presumably since time immemorial, and that as a necessary implication we would not be moral or be compelled to be moral without religion.
Let's start with this.
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21 Jan 2015 15:33 #235824
by Snoopster
Snoopster
« Reply #42 on: 01/15/2015, 02:57 PM »
Quote from: SCA on 01/15/2015, 02:53 PM
<blockquote>Ok...morality...are you disputing that we are not taught morality via religious indoctrination?
</blockquote>
This is your case. You stated that religion provides us with morality. Axiomatic is the premise that without religion we would not be moral or compelled to act morally. It appears that this conclusion is somehow self evident to you. Well I require that your prove it.
</blockquote>
This is your case. You stated that religion provides us with morality. Axiomatic is the premise that without religion we would not be moral or compelled to act morally. It appears that this conclusion is somehow self evident to you. Well I require that your prove it.
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21 Jan 2015 15:34 #235825
by Snoopster
Snoopster
Re: Not Lord Shiva but Buddha is the real Diety
« Reply #47 on: 01/15/2015, 03:21 PM »
Quote from: SCA on 01/15/2015, 03:08 PM
<blockquote>Yes lets start...my religious teachings taught me to be kind, considerate, fair, just, equitable...and that was before I knew what those things meant, and how to apply them to my life today. However, even today, I hold those values/morals close to my being. It taught me to respect my parents, to honor, worship them. And I still do. I am not sure where you got, or if you were exposed to any religious teachings, but if you were, then I am sure you would have been aware of the 'goodness' imparted by the religious teachings.
</blockquote>
Which religious teachings specifically?
None of the enumerated virtues you listed such as kindness, consideration of others, fairness, justice or equity is contingent on or originated from organized religions. Sure, I grant you that all religions and its members claim to possess these virtues in spades but no evidence has been pro-offered to suggest that these virtues are solely in the purview of the religious and correspondingly to the exclusion of the non-religious.
In fact far more evidence exists that our concepts of morality pre-dates religion. The golden rule for example was stated by Confucius hundreds of years before the alleged appearance of Yeshua Bin Yosef a.k.a Jesus Christ. The code of Hammurabi pre-dates any set of enumerated religious laws such as the ten commandments.
I don't take it as self evident that religions confer upon us the compunction to be moral.
</blockquote>
Which religious teachings specifically?
None of the enumerated virtues you listed such as kindness, consideration of others, fairness, justice or equity is contingent on or originated from organized religions. Sure, I grant you that all religions and its members claim to possess these virtues in spades but no evidence has been pro-offered to suggest that these virtues are solely in the purview of the religious and correspondingly to the exclusion of the non-religious.
In fact far more evidence exists that our concepts of morality pre-dates religion. The golden rule for example was stated by Confucius hundreds of years before the alleged appearance of Yeshua Bin Yosef a.k.a Jesus Christ. The code of Hammurabi pre-dates any set of enumerated religious laws such as the ten commandments.
I don't take it as self evident that religions confer upon us the compunction to be moral.
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21 Jan 2015 15:35 #235826
by Snoopster
Snoopster
Re: Not Lord Shiva but Buddha is the real Diety
« Reply #49 on: 01/15/2015, 03:33 PM »
Quote from: SCA on 01/15/2015, 03:26 PM
<blockquote>Bai you real confused. Your concept of religion begin where again? Date? I am asking you this becasue I want to understand how you arrive at your conclusion.
Have you read any religious texts? And were any without the teaching of morals?
</blockquote>
Remember, this is your case. You stated it as self evident that religion confers morality on us. I am simply saying provide proper evidence for this proposition.
And yes, I've read the Bible, the Quran, the Torah and the Vedic and Buddists texts. You seem to assume I have not.
The more religious books I read the more I came to the conclusion that they are man made rather than divine revelations.
My view is that morality is innate in us human beings. That social cohesion requires people to abstain from murder, theft, infidelity etc. That religion represents the childhood of our species in that it triumphs faith over reason.
Have you read any religious texts? And were any without the teaching of morals?
</blockquote>
Remember, this is your case. You stated it as self evident that religion confers morality on us. I am simply saying provide proper evidence for this proposition.
And yes, I've read the Bible, the Quran, the Torah and the Vedic and Buddists texts. You seem to assume I have not.
The more religious books I read the more I came to the conclusion that they are man made rather than divine revelations.
My view is that morality is innate in us human beings. That social cohesion requires people to abstain from murder, theft, infidelity etc. That religion represents the childhood of our species in that it triumphs faith over reason.
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21 Jan 2015 15:37 #235827
by Snoopster
And here it is folks!! The mother of all contradictory statements in all its glory! ::LOL::
SCA
Re: Not Lord Shiva but Buddha is the real Diety
« Reply #50 on: 01/15/2015, 03:35 PM »
I never mentioned that my religious teachings originated from religion, however I received my teaching via religion, with my mom as my teacher. And I believe my mom, like you believe in 'non-believing.' However I am curious how you came to the belief that morals were note disseminated by religion teaching.
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21 Jan 2015 15:40 #235828
by Snoopster
Snoopster
Re: Not Lord Shiva but Buddha is the real Diety
« Reply #51 on: 01/15/2015, 03:40 PM »
Quote from: SCA on 01/15/2015, 03:35 PM
<blockquote>I never mentioned that my religious teachings originated from religion, however I received my teaching via religion
</blockquote>
Well excuse me for being thoroughly confused by that statement. I mean, it's so spectacularly contradictory and nonsensical.
</blockquote>
Well excuse me for being thoroughly confused by that statement. I mean, it's so spectacularly contradictory and nonsensical.
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21 Jan 2015 15:43 #235829
by Snoopster
The Niagara Falls of stupidity kept coming at me at an alarming rate. ::LOL::
Snoopster
Re: Not Lord Shiva but Buddha is the real Diety
« Reply #52 on: 01/15/2015, 03:42 PM »
Quote from: SCA on 01/15/2015, 03:35 PM
<blockquote>I never mentioned that my religious teachings originated from religion, however I received my teaching via religion, with my mom as my teacher. And I believe my mom, like you believe in 'non-believing.' However I am curious how you came to the belief that morals were note disseminated by religion teaching.
</blockquote>
Explain to me how one believes in non-believing. I don't have the vaguest idea what you mean by this.
</blockquote>
Explain to me how one believes in non-believing. I don't have the vaguest idea what you mean by this.
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21 Jan 2015 15:46 #235830
by Snoopster
Snoopster
Re: Not Lord Shiva but Buddha is the real Diety
« Reply #55 on: 01/15/2015, 03:59 PM »
Quote from: SCA on 01/15/2015, 03:45 PM
<blockquote>My friend belief is colloquially terms for belief in god...you do not believe in god, therefore you beleive in non-belief.
I am not here to question your belief, whatever they are...I think you are more of a skeptic than a non-beleiver. But to each his own.
</blockquote>
No, you seem to imply that "believing in non-belief" is itself a religion of some kind since it is premised on a 'belief'. This isn't about questioning my views, though I welcome such queries and questions.
But this illogical fallacy seems to give enormous comfort to religious people who seem to think that everything and every thought requires a 'belief' system and that this somehow legitimizes their faith and/or religion.
My own personal view is that all the evidence I have look at thus far suggests to me that it is more probable than not that religion is man made rather than being revealed by a celestial deity.
I am not here to question your belief, whatever they are...I think you are more of a skeptic than a non-beleiver. But to each his own.
</blockquote>
No, you seem to imply that "believing in non-belief" is itself a religion of some kind since it is premised on a 'belief'. This isn't about questioning my views, though I welcome such queries and questions.
But this illogical fallacy seems to give enormous comfort to religious people who seem to think that everything and every thought requires a 'belief' system and that this somehow legitimizes their faith and/or religion.
My own personal view is that all the evidence I have look at thus far suggests to me that it is more probable than not that religion is man made rather than being revealed by a celestial deity.
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