Do We Know What Evil Is?

it is getting a lil difficult for me to follow you Pattacake.  process or analysis must lead from the complex to simplicity.  complexity is a function of lack of knowledge.  simplicity is from knowledge..or knowing something.  you become facile in it..capable in it.  today E=MC2 is childs play right.  before we knew it getting to it was the hardest possible thing

and we find out things because we don't know and to survive we must know...so we find answers to the problems we face and give ourselves better chance of going on.  so driven to survive we find out things but that is a function of technology/knowledge.

  "The shift is not linked to technology, but technology is linked to the change. Technology itself is linked to laziness" 

that is cart before the horse.  how did suburbia come about ::confused::

before suburbia the city was compact  around the train.  the car made spread possible..car..technology revolutionized living.  look at urban sprawl and see the amount that has come out of the car...and the ways of life it has engendered.  look at what making the car has brought into existence and the classes that came into life and now play in life due to the car.  and the class who made the car dominated along with all the other manufactures of things..then look at how the financiers grew in the bosom of the manufactures to become the dominant social class of this day

you have to strip away all the unnecessary complexities/abstractions in your thought on this issue Pattacake.  life is whats out there and us as part of the universal process.  you forget that all we know is of that universal reality and that it was before us and that all we know and can know is of that.  so we must be looking at that to find out how it works not what we think it must be, or how we think it must work.  we must know ourselves as physical beings so we can take care of ourselves..we must know reality, the universe outside of us and our relationship to it, and in it

there is nothing else you know..absolutely nothing else..except that what actually exists is likely amazing and endlessly so...and on that still endlessly evolving, making more, expanding continuously, an endless universe expanding forever.  it is in there, in discovery of what exists on an evolutionary basis, we may find the answers to at least our material problems, ways to extend individual life and on and on

there is a whole lot more endlessly but we have to get the basis right. and to so we recognize and accept reality for what it is.  there is no philosophical construct out of elitist life that I pay anymore attention to because they are all pointless.  why?  because minorities dominate life, control education and the media, the intellectual superstructure of society and as a minority with a vested interest how can their point of view be general?  it is not a general they inculcate in society but their own sectarian minority view of life that is opposed to the general broader view of the people i their majority...a working class view

I don't mean to make our technology sound like a bad thing Map.


But what I'm trying to point out is that our level of social development is not in balance with our technology. Understand? I'm saying that our technologies may be making our life more convenient in a physical sense, but it's causing us more problems in a spiritual sense because it's impeding our evolution. It's slowing us down and making us more lazy and dumb. It's a distraction from our natural course. We are not created and sent to this world to get lost in gadgets, we're sent here to become. So in balance, our social level should be equal to or higher than our technology and our social level is far below it. That's what I'm saying.


As for instance,


Steve Jobs didn't allow his children to use his computer products. And he was right, because kids get strung out on it which distracts their attention from reality and causes ADD. Technology can actually break us down and weaken us, and the weaker we become the more controllable we are by capitalists. We literally become livestock.


You can't teach sheep nothing about reality because they're tuned out and on focused on mechanical and other material goods. They have to be spoken to in allegory because they can't face reality head on. All they desire to do is indulge and follow. They see everything behind a whole different lens.

Let us not forget that even in the Bible, it says that as technology advances, man will grow weaker and weaker. This is talking about the human mind becoming more dumb and lazy. More and more detached from reality and more and more immersed in fantasy. Which in turn, more and more fragments us and keeps us apart as people. Detachment from reality means detachment from each other.

Most of us have no idea how much more there is to us than our TV screens and buttons to push. We're flying to the moon and building skyscrapers, but can't even raise and protect our children properly.

you making some intellectual and observational mistakes and at the moment I am not right enough to help you out in a better manner..a simple manner, by simplifying things.  I must admit I am struggling myself at the moment.

again..life and its content is all there is..but that content is vast, dynamic and interconnected and can produce ultimately what we do not know, cant know. we must start from observation of life, the reality we are a part of the material word and work from there to determine truth.  we cant think things out,from our heads like the philosophers sit and do.  or the mathematicians in laboratories. match by itself cant tell us anything save in measuring reality to answer the questions about things that exist currently and in the past.  the best math can do is by proving the past and current it  helps us predict what we will find out some reasonable distance into the future. the proof of any mathematical theory is how well it deals with the current and the quality of its predictive value.  and only time tells that

reality is where we start and from nowhere else..observation, codification of details, spec using details until we find something basic about any aspect of reality we are working on that would let us begin experimentation.  and we expect indeed know that no matter what everything is provisional because..meaning that we are always behind the clock, that evolution is moving much faster than we can catch up so all we know will be temporary, what we discover about anything is only momentary for it changes as we go.

so..in such a volatile and unstable reality we must be ready to learn and appropriate new knowledge at all times. our minds must be prepared, in tune with nature in fact for us to have a chance..our minds must be trained and available to learn at all times..the logical availability of the mind, in provisional reality is key.  this suggest that learning, the development of life on he wholeis a collective job, a condition all of society must achieve for us to have any chance at all in the universe we are a part of which is endless and complex to eternity.  but the complexity is one of nature happening to us, around us, in us, outside us..how it works and what are the possibilites in it for us to go on, to overcome our own existential challenges and survive indefinitely...if possible become god.

that may be there for us..becoming so powerful an entity if it is possible in the universe for evolved beings to become so.  but it would be all of nature..possible in nature for us to be able to become god.  it would not be a fantasy but part of universal reality and we would have to find out if it is by our own efforts.  take god for example.  god as we know god must have come from nothing.  but we cant find a state of nothing anywhere. no one has ever found a state of volatile, energetic and unstable NOTHING that might explode to result in something ever and anywhere.  life on the whole is material, matter everywhere, all things, evolving, changing.  the manifestation of things is energy in matter in motion evolving..everywhere.  so NOTHING is impossible then so where is god and the philosophers?  they and their trade is dead that's what unless they can work and exist at the edge of what is known..so hey can play in the unknown.  but if they are going to play there their philosophies must be relevant to what is known,plausible and logical capable of leading to more truth,more like scientific theories than what I can idle and groundless speculation.

when society arrives at such a stage people advance and so on you would not be able to tell people nonsense and hope to be taken seriously.  god itself cant exist as we have conceptualized god.  there is no know formula by which any such god can exist. such gods would have had to have been born big and out of nothing.  the best we can say for god is that it self created out of the materials of existence..or in existence.  how a god can self create I don't know...but cant say it is impossible.  heaven and hell is nonsense, original ideas of which apparently were myths created to explain time cycles.  at the same time it is possible that when humans die something happens and we are not entirely lost, no matter what happens to our bodies.  but that would have to be a production of nature, what nature has done in its own evolution which is all there is.... nature in evolution in which we are product and part of.

and whatever there may be when we die all are qualified for it by being born of nature, a continuation of the process of nature, a transformation of matter.  whatever it is..or is not.. it is what natures had done, will be answered in time unavoidably so such questions are not questions at all.  there are answers waiting..and so I don't seek any answers for them myself.  that is for the idiotic priests and them

now Steve Jobs!  we must have an accurate answer to why Jobs never let his own children play with his pc toys.  without that answer all is spec regarding that specific  issue..which for me is no issue at all.  there are billions of children in the world..many exposed to pcs/apps all day long.  my son played with a pc from the time he could understand what they were. as far as I can see he is fine today, an expert in the field, a senior systems analyst with a ton of designations.  and he was exposed to the whole pc gamut.  and not only him... all his friends too...most of them white. and they are all fine people today.

so what did Steve Jobs do with his pc that he is or was so afraid to allow his own children to be exposed to ::confused::  so what die he exposed his children too understanding that this is an age in which his children must be facile in the new and developing technology or they will have serious existential social problems in their lives ::confused::

which brings us to class relations.  society based on exploitative relations produces hostile and violent social relations.  it must be so because the ZERO SUM game represented by capitalism profit is made at the expense of people.  that is what zero sum means..I gain you loose.  it is not a sharing,  it is not people do not have because they are lazy, it is not that some people work hard and others do not.  all of that nonsense has nutten to do with anything.  it is that exploitation finds expression in a monopolized zero sum game in which all the laws have been written in such a way to ensure that all economic activity results in the accumulation of all the wealth in society in the hands of a very few of the people...a group we call oligarch.  that's it..the be all and end all of it.  and all along towards this end the social relations are harsh, brutal, violent and murderous which sees the dominant class weaponzing all scientific discoveries along the way as first requirement, before such discoveries are  used for anything else..making weapons against the people, to keep them under control.

so what the it is fair to ask,what did Steve Jobs do with his software that he would not expose his children to them ::confused::  the excuse of ADD and lazy do not  cut it..is nonsense really.  Television is ADD not computers..and lazy is not a function of dealing with PCs. indeed all work is already computerized..computers recognized as a major human scientific/technological advance.  so what was Jobs up to, assuming that you reported him accurately here Pattacake ::confused::

I said this here to promote a sense of how things flow Pattacake because you have the details mounted up wrong as far as I can tell.  humans are face with challenges to our existence we must meet and solve..hence technology.  if yuh hungry and you gather and eat stuff and that dry up and you realize that a strong piece of wood, a club would lead to a meal of meat then the club is a technological advance as you really begin to put it to use. you find that you can all sorts of things with it.  if your mind was small it now begins to expand as you find uses for the club. you start to grow in all ways with the discovery and development of use of the club.  then cutting instruments, cups and bowls..then ultimately the noun..naming them and verb how they are used.  so original life went through a major revolution with the discovery of the club as first weapon/tool... for food and war, that led to major mental and physical development, to growing human confidence in existence, confidence on ability to defend aganst the other forms of life and each other, to agricultural development and sedentary life, social advance, general social development we know currently..all from the discovery of tools/weapons.  technology revolutionizes life all the time

we have the same problem today Pattacake..technological advance has made old capitalism unworkable.  there is no more routine work for the people because of technological advance.  what are you going to do with the people Pattacake who already cant find work.  soon there will be nor work for millions upon millions who used to have worked up to now..everywhere in the world.  a major social problem is at hand as a result of technological advance...and at the same time extreme concentration of wealth.  the only way this can be handled without major human catastrophe is for there to be social revolution from the ground up..which in itself will be catastrophic... but at least there-in is contained the only major positive left for human society..the emergence of social democracy of the real kind

but you do see the role of technological advance..how it is tied up essentially with human biological and intellectual advance..how it results in the needs for human survival..food security, medicines etc..and that the stage of the day, any stage humanity has arrived at must be consumed fully for there to be more advance..and any social organization of society that prevents the consumption of the day is in the process of retarding society, taking it backward, not forward......

I'm sorry Map. But Jobs didn't allow his kids to get lost in technology. Fact. Remember, that the smart pusher never exposes his family to his own product.


Jobs wanted his children's mind to develop normally. Not to be put to sleep with gadgets. And he was right. What did he do with his PC? He sold it to the world and got rich that's what. ::LOL::

And nope, the Gods didn't come from nothing. Just because we don't know for sure where they came from doesn't mean they came from nothing. All it means is that we don't know where. There's a difference. There's a lot of things about the Gods we can know if we weren't backwards.

Now with your point on class relations... The asleep have to be exploited. And they're going to be exploited. Because without exploitation, the asleep have no way of waking up. How is anybody asleep going to awaken without being shaken?

Harsh, brutal, or whatever, is what it takes to wake people up, because in sleep people don't see or listen. They're hellbent on doing the blind things they feel like doing. When a naive female goes looking for love from a man, she's sound asleep, now how is she to wake up unless a man uses her for sex and whatever he want from her? She can't wake up unless he turns her out. So she may complain about what a bad guy he is, but the truth is that he did her a favor to play her for a fool. He was nothing but obvious trouble to begin with, and failed to see that. So he has to show her what she closes her eyes to. And that's exactly what he's going to do. No ifs, and, or maybes.

Map, you place too much value on technology and refuse to see where it's leading us. And as spiritual teachers always say, you can't teach light to those who only know darkness.

and you are too opiniated pattacake...way to closed-off.

you are not even at first base yet relative to my perspective and you are telling me what I am too much at

I told you that capitalist social relations due to its comprehensive exploitation of society...zero sum..produces violence on al  social levels and you have not dug into that to see where it may lead..even how credible it is as a claim about life in the first place.

now you come up with Jobs utter violence against the people as you describe  and its as if it stops there for you..that you have stated something that ends right there with your conclusion.  it does not. you have only just begun.

what is the violence that Jobs did to the people...what were his rewards, what did he do with them..has he committed crime..yes..is the magnitude of his crime, crime against humanity...yes!

what can the people do to him...put him in jail forever if he is tried for his crime against humanity..or pop his neck.  why did he escaped investigation, arrest and charge for such crime...because he has bought out the system along with those like him..all of whom escape the same for their own crimes against humanity. so we have an extrajudicial body in society, above the law preying on human society. that is what you have just admitted and glorified in your own terms.  you agree with it but it is all criminal and destroys the ordinary people who can do nothing bout it..unless they rise up in revolution and overthrow the system.

and what would Jobs and dem to to prevent that possibility and so protect themselves from paying for their crimes..kill the people, do them all kinds of destructive things to destroy their capability for revolution. they use the very technology we speak of that has many aspects to it one of which is weaponization t be used against ordianry people

BUT DON'T YOU SEE PATTACAKE THAT TECHNOLOGY IS USED ACCORDING TO WHICH CLASS IS IN POWER AND WHAT THEIR VESTED SOCIAL INTERESTS IS.  TECHNOLOGY BY ITS EVOLUTION AND DEVELOPMENT IN INDUSTRY CALLS FORTH NEW CLASS AND SOCIAL RELATIONS AND IS USED ACCORDING TO WHICH CLASS DOMINATES, THEIR NEEDS IN SOCIETY.  BY ITSELF TECHNOLOGY CANNOT LIVE AND ACT. ITS USES IS WHAT DESTABILIZES..OR HAS THE CAPACITY TO DESTABILIZE ALL SOCIAL RELATIONS.

if there is a successful social revolution that makes society classless,horizontal, then all are taken care off, there is no reason in society to weaponize technology unless we expect enemies from space.  but if society is not exploitative then the element of violence on mass scales is removed.

but you do not see violence as a consequences of class relations and the best way to deal with it is to address the needs of all the people which makes society not capitalist but socialist. the capitalist cant address the needs of the people but the people can if they overthrow capitalism which is what they must do because the capitalist cant change his own system and expose himself to liability for his crimes,loose their money and power and so on

YOU SEE...YOU HAVE YOUR IDEAS BUT YOUR IDEAS ARE NOT UP FOR DISCUSSION.  YOU HOLD THEM TO BE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT NO QUESTIONS NEED TO BE ASKED.  BUT FROM MY POINT OF VIEW YOU ARE DEAD WRONG, ABSOLUTELY WRONG.  BUT NOT ONLY MY POINT OF VIEW..THERE SS A POINT WHERE MY POINT OF VIEW COINCIDES WITH ESTABLISHED TRUTH..AND WHERE NOT, AT LEAST IN LINE WITH GENERAL OPINION ON THE SUBJECT. I DID NOT SEE WHERE YOUR POINT OF VIEW DID MUCH OF THAT COINCIDE WITH GENERAL OPINION

nevertheless all I say here is up for analysis,tear it apart etc...anyone can do with it as they please.  and I cant stop that for anything I say that is posted in the public is out of my control.  I have exposed it to the world and the world will do with it as it pleases, including ignoring it totally tuh rarse clart.

i SUGGEST FOR YOU PATTACAKE..OPEN MIND..THEN INVESTIGATION OF WHAT YOU SEE OF INTEREST, INVESTIGATION OF WHAT YOU GOING TO SAY BEFORE YOU SAY IT... TO MAKE SURE WHAT YOU DO SAY IS IN LINE WITH TRUTH.  AND THAT YOU INVESTIGATION BE LIKEWISE OPEN-MINDED.  YOU CANT GO INVESTIGATE WITH SUCH STRONG PRE-CONCEPTIONS THAT WHAT YOU DISCOVER BECOME MEANINGLESS DUE TO YOUR BELIEFS

Okay Map.


You win.

it  is easy to read your ideas of the people of the world...you have no respect for the people, see their suffering as deserved, see the predations of rich men and women as justified

but again that is seeing the world through morality, ethics and such nonsense.  that is why you ask about good and bad,,or peoples conception of evil.  but you are dead wrong all around because none of that is true, valid of any dam point point in life.  all that set of crap is relative to is capitalism itself...capitalism and its controlling, manipulated and manipulative intellectual superstructure.

one you get outside that and see the real world the conclusion is simple:  none of it matters.  the real issue has nothing at all to do with capitalism.  in fact capitalism is indeed the greatest current hindrance and challenge to human survival on the planet we all live on. to conceptualize that challenge let me put it in the form of the following question:  how does humanity survive indefinitely in an evolutionary universe.

now investigate that question Pattacake and get outside the capitalist framework ...get an idea of how life really is.  capitalism is not all..just a churrup exploitative system that is already dated... its only wow the weapons we have developed that ca kill us all off.  another fine example of the stupidity that passes for intelligence called capitalism..building weapons bigger than the earth, on hair trigger at the moment because the big countries are in a state of war because of american exceptionalism.  or building nuclear power plants on earth quake faults, on assumption that nature can only throw a certain power of earthquake at the people..given that in our history that was indeed all that nature has ever done..about 9 point something on their scale of Richter.  that is what dem arseholes and dem think despite the fact that the youngest this planet can possible be is 5 billion years old and the cycles we have observed and really by what has happened in our own time.  here are cycles out there of far greater duration for sure.  and we don't know about any of them..so 9.0 is nothing at all to be certain of.  that is why we are all hanging to life by tenuous FUKUSHIMA threads

wake up patta....you are in a jacket of yuh own making

I was not playing a game andlooking to win anything.  there is nutten to win save your own development in truth..so that you can do soem thing that may come back and benefit me

You have it set in your mind that technology is the magic bullet to human existence.

pattycake!  ::LOL::